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 Post subject: Re: Contentious but needs to be said.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:11 pm 
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The Mackem
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How Does A Citronella Dog Collar Work?
A citronella dog collar is a type of spray dog collar. Spray dog collars work by spraying a substance (in this case citronella, but versions also exist that use water or lemon juice) in the dogs face when the collar senses (via a microphone) that your dog is barking. The idea is that the dog, discomforted by the citronella spray, will learn to stop barking to avoid being sprayed in the face. Pet owners consider the citronella dog collars to be more humane than the electric shock dog collars, and citronella collars have been proven to be more effective than shock collars (in some instances a dog given an electric collar would keep barking despite the shock, whereas with the citronella collar, the odor was so unpleasant that later a substitute could be used and the dog would still not bark, fearing the smell of the citronella spray).

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 Post subject: Re: Contentious but needs to be said.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:15 pm 
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The Mackem
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I would add I dislike the RSPCA and The Kennel Club

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 Post subject: Re: Contentious but needs to be said.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Mrs Pepper
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Pete wrote:
How Does A Citronella Dog Collar Work?
A citronella dog collar is a type of spray dog collar. Spray dog collars work by spraying a substance (in this case citronella, but versions also exist that use water or lemon juice) in the dogs face when the collar senses (via a microphone) that your dog is barking. The idea is that the dog, discomforted by the citronella spray, will learn to stop barking to avoid being sprayed in the face. Pet owners consider the citronella dog collars to be more humane than the electric shock dog collars, and citronella collars have been proven to be more effective than shock collars (in some instances a dog given an electric collar would keep barking despite the shock, whereas with the citronella collar, the odor was so unpleasant that later a substitute could be used and the dog would still not bark, fearing the smell of the citronella spray).

As already stated one size NEVER fits all. If you have a barking problem a spray collar can work yes, it can also be totally ignored very quickly with some dogs. There is even a mustard spray which again doesn’t always work. There are also remote spray collars that can be used for other behaviour modification at distance, like animal chasing. And again yes will work with some. But the same as the barking collar, some dogs get used it, ignore it. Especially if highly aroused in prey drive.
But yes they will work for some smaller behaviour problems and are ideal for pet owners.
I don’t think e collars should be available as they are now, via the internet, cheap versions and used without proper training.
You DO NOT and WILL NOT find a proper training put an e collar on a dog and start shocking the crap out of them. The dogs are conditioned, and the trainer finds workable stim levels and it goes on. This is what the government should be doing, ensuring regulation and education of these tools. However I feel the same about check chains, dog halters. Some of the atrocious use ive seen of these by non educated owners can be bloody awful to watch. It’s not the tools it’s the person handling them. We can get a gun licence and keep a gun which can kill. So licence the product by all means but to ban it, is making over 300,000 responsible caring dog owners criminals and maybe sentencing many more high prey drive dogs to death sentences.
Regulate, educate, not ban!


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 Post subject: Re: Contentious but needs to be said.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Mrs Pepper
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Just as another explanation about e collars.
E Collars used correctly a dog is taught how to understand an e collar before properly using it. A bit like when you first put a lead on a puppy, you let them know not to pull with pressure and release.
A Lead goes taut, there are many many many different training methods and ways to correct this, treats are one, when the lead loosens a treat is received, some turn the other direction, the dog learns taut lead means they can’t go they want to go which is forward hence the pulling, some correct check on the lead and then release and so on. But basically pressure, a tight lead, or a check a directional change are all for the dog a negative response. A loose lead, a treat, praise, a pat continued walking all a positive reward. Different dogs respond differently to various methods.
Once learnt an occasional correction maybe needed but they have learnt what is required.
The ECollar exactly the same, you start by teaching them what it is, low level stim is nothing more than a microcurrent that you get from medical arc machines for healing ( which are amazing btw) or tens machines. The dog shows at what level it feels the stim, by maybe stopping, a scratch, an ear twitch, that is the working level for that individual dog. You then work through low arousal levels and find the correction level, a level that will stop the drive, get the dogs attention. A bit like tugging a lead or poking the dog for its attention but able to do at distance.
The higher levels are only used when the arousal or prey drive is so high that they don’t listen, I’m sure most dog owners have had this at times when the dog just “goes deaf” lol and Yes this can be uncomfortable, no it shouldn’t make a dog scream, if it does you have either not conditioned the dog properly or you need educating, but the uncomfortable higher level when doing the undesired behaviour very quickly enables a dog to make the right decision to stop the feeling, hence the conditioning period. They don’t want to feel uncomfortable and soon learn in fact natural instinct tells them, that it just isn’t worth following the behaviour it’s trying to carry out.
And in turn the dog chooses not to chase whatever it is it’s being used for. It doesn’t effect the dogs confidence as they learn they can avoid the unpleasant feeling by not doing that behaviour, so they self regulate. They learn impulse control themselves. It doesn’t breakdown the relationship with their owner in any way, as some would like you to believe, quite the opposite, as it’s the thing causing the behaviour causing the unpleasant feeling in their mind, not an owner shouting, pulling hitting nagging whatever.
It’s very rare that very high levels will need any kind of regular use.
E Collar users don’t spend their days electrocuting their dogs at high levels as has been suggested, far from it. Many ECOllar owners stop using it completely as the dogs have learnt they don’t want to chase this or that, hence why it works with or without the owners present, but what they are chasing correcting them if you like, because it’s not associated to the owner presence.
Like many dogs, they are great on the lead or in a sterile environment at home or a training class but off the lead in a high arousal environment off lead a distance away from the owner with that now uninteresting piece of chicken, that recall you thought you had in the church hall goes out the window.
Hope that helps make a little more sense about them.


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 Post subject: Re: Contentious but needs to be said.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:10 am 
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Why not just save the money and get a taser [shrug65465.gif]

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 Post subject: Re: Contentious but needs to be said.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:15 pm 
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FireStarter
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I had never heard of an E collar until I read this .....so I had to look it up... my initial reaction was omg how barbaric and thought the same as Pete would you put this on a child etc. However, after reading Poli's posts again (and knowing she is an animal lover) and other information it seems that some dogs can benefit from these collars and I think she makes some good points here when talking about regulating them.
f politics wrote:
I don’t think e collars should be available as they are now, via the internet, cheap versions and used without proper training.
You DO NOT and WILL NOT find a proper training put an e collar on a dog and start shocking the crap out of them. The dogs are conditioned, and the trainer finds workable stim levels and it goes on. This is what the government should be doing, ensuring regulation and education of these tools. However I feel the same about check chains, dog halters. Some of the atrocious use ive seen of these by non educated owners can be bloody awful to watch. It’s not the tools it’s the person handling them. We can get a gun licence and keep a gun which can kill. So licence the product by all means but to ban it, is making over 300,000 responsible caring dog owners criminals and maybe sentencing many more high prey drive dogs to death sentences.
Regulate, educate, not ban!


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 Post subject: Re: Contentious but needs to be said.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Miss Sunshine

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:04 pm
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Pete wrote:
Would you use the collar on a child? There are other collars available that spray stuff etc

Do you know, in America in some of the specialist ASD schools they actually do use electric shock therapy to make the children comform. Doesn’t sit well by me [eusa_naughty.gif]


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 Post subject: Re: Contentious but needs to be said.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Well HELLOOOOO!

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:35 pm
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Thankfully, I'm a cat person.


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 Post subject: Re: Contentious but needs to be said.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:34 am 
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Mrs Pepper
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Peeks wrote:
Pete wrote:
Would you use the collar on a child? There are other collars available that spray stuff etc

Do you know, in America in some of the specialist ASD schools they actually do use electric shock therapy to make the children comform. Doesn’t sit well by me [eusa_naughty.gif]

A little different with kids as we have the same language and are the same species and they don’t generally have a killing prey drive, plus they have a higher understanding of expression gestures and of course the language to explain things. However if I had a child that was able to slip away and play in the traffic or on a bridge in the sea anywhere dangerous like that, and they weren’t learning or responding to the language and explanations and were risking the lives of both themselves and others, yeah I’d use an e collar on a child within reason.
Cant comment about the shock therapy though, as I’ve no idea about it, or how it’s administered or how extreme or for what purpose, age, etc.
I mean if it’s to get an older kid to not stab or shoot someone, to conform in that respect then if it stops them, yep all for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Contentious but needs to be said.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:35 am 
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Mrs Pepper
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Sgt Pepper wrote:
Thankfully, I'm a cat person.

Liking Pussy doesn’t mean you’re a cat person. [giggle.gif]


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