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 Post subject: I wonder why?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:50 am 
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Person of Interest

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:32 pm
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""Led by Labour MP David Lammy, the inquiry concluded black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) individuals still face bias, including overt discrimination, in parts of the justice system.""

Might it just be because of the frequency with which they appear, hogging the headlines day after day?

Sexgangs, Rapists, Knifemen, druggies, Jihadism; they do seem to specialise in these activities.

Or am I too judgemental?


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder why?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Silent Assassin

Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:45 pm
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Location: Somewhere in Middle England
No, you're too easily swayed by the media, if you can call the daily fail the media.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder why?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:26 pm 
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cont. on page 273. . . .

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:01 pm
Posts: 4031
Dong wrote:
Wordsworth60 wrote:
Are you saying that you would prefer to believe someone who is more likely to have experienced racism about whether something is or isn't racist?


I think so!

Unless you have been subjected to racism, . . . . , I don't think you can have an inkling of what that is like.



How big is your inkling?


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder why?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:38 pm 
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Amber wrote:
No, you're too easily swayed by the media, if you can call the daily fail the media.


Well, please don't ignore the fact that these I speak of have all been charged and processed in our courts.

And according to The Right Hon. David Lammy
MP. we should treat them with more respect.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder why?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Silent Assassin

Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:45 pm
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Location: Somewhere in Middle England
Have you actually read the review's findings and recommendations?


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder why?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:07 pm 
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cont. on page 273. . . .

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:01 pm
Posts: 4031
Dong wrote:
Amber wrote:
No, you're too easily swayed by the media, if you can call the daily fail the media.


Well, please don't ignore the fact that these I speak of have all been charged and processed in our courts.

And according to The Right Hon. David Lammy
MP. we should treat them with more respect.


They have to be charged, after being arrested by the police, well before they get to the courts, probably in line with recommendations by the Crown Prosecution Service.

If you haven't already, at some point you will probably begin threads complaining that human beings in the employment of one and/or another of these institutions have demonstrated fallibility. So ponder this, just by dint of human error:

The more likely you are to come to the attention of police - and trust me if you belong to an out-group, people are more likely to call the police even when you're a child - the more likely you are to be arrested and the more likely you are to be subject to fallibility.

Perm that through each stage of the system, compound it for the situations in which ex-offenders find themselves and for any second offences, which seem even more likely after you've been through the system.

Add in the factors that the number of people from ethnic minorities who appear in the media for the offences you mention is minuscule compared to the prison population.

Add in that people from the ethnic majority are no less likely to commit the same offences, but significantly less likely to be stopped by, or reported to, the police.

You now have sufficient reason to question how much the outworking of the various justice-related institutions, including the courts, contributes.

Even if you think that everyone in prison is guilty, unless you have never, ever broken the teensiest law, have a little appreciation for the 'there but for the grace of God' factor.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder why?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:37 am 
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I think you should have read David Lammy's opinions before posting this apologetic stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder why?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:41 am 
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Nip and Nap
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Posts: 12022
Dong wrote:
""Led by Labour MP David Lammy, the inquiry concluded black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) individuals still face bias, including overt discrimination, in parts of the justice system.""

Might it just be because of the frequency with which they appear, hogging the headlines day after day?

Sexgangs, Rapists, Knifemen, druggies, Jihadism; they do seem to specialise in these activities.

Or am I too judgemental?


No, you're just racially biased.


https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/se ... avid-lammy

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 Post subject: Re: I wonder why?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:44 am 
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cont. on page 273. . . .

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:01 pm
Posts: 4031
Dong wrote:
I think you should have read David Lammy's opinions before posting this apologetic stuff.


You assume I haven't. You seem to imply that if I did I would reach the same conclusions as you. I hope you don't bet with your own money.

I was addressing your specific comment and its implications. Mr Lammy's report is interesting but it is not the only source of information on the subject.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder why?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:55 am 
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cont. on page 273. . . .

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:01 pm
Posts: 4031
Here's an article by Mr Lammy on some of the review's findings concerning children and young people. I think it adds some nuance.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ice-system

"When David Cameron asked me to conduct a review into the over-representation of black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) individuals in the criminal justice system, I thought I was being set up to fail. So many of the causes of, and answers to, the problem lie outside the criminal justice system: poverty, lone-parent families, school exclusions, and growing up in the care system. And what more is there left to say about stop and search?

But having looked at the evidence over the past 18 months, my judgment is that we have a significant problem in the criminal justice system itself, and that the treatment of BAME young people shows this problem is getting worse.

Minority ethnic children make up a growing proportion of those offending for the first time, reoffending, and serving custodial sentences. Today 41% of under-18s in custody are from minority backgrounds, compared with 25% a decade ago. Young black people are now nine times more likely to be in youth custody than young white people. I expected to find the youth justice system laser-focused on this issue. Instead, I have seen large parts of the system indifferent to issues of race.

The best schools can tell you immediately how children from different backgrounds are achieving – and who is falling behind. They use data to inform practice and track progress. This sense of urgency has been missing in youth justice. Unless something changes, this cohort will become the next generation of adult offenders.

Black boys are more than 10 times as likely as white boys to be arrested for drug offences. But behind these young people are adults. Last year, nearly three-quarters of police forces arrested under-16s for selling crack, heroin or cocaine. These drugs come from somewhere. Vulnerable children are being preyed on. Parents feel powerless about their children being drawn into street crime under duress. We – police, prosecutors, policymakers and the press – need to focus more on the hardened criminals who are moving weapons around our country and sending youngsters out to push drugs. The government’s modern slavery legislation must be used to prevent the exploitation of vulnerable children.

This is not about letting offenders off – precisely the opposite. More enforcement must be focused on powerful adults, further up criminal hierarchies

A third of young people in custody have spent time in the care system, and a similar proportion have mental health issues. Nearly half arrive with substance misuse problems. But these problems are not being picked up as often for minority ethnic children as white children. BAME children in custody are less likely to be recorded as having substance misuse concerns, to be at risk of self-harm, to have learning difficulties, to have mental health concerns, to be disengaged from education, and to have problematic family relationships. The pattern is too consistent to ignore. It is hard not to conclude that minority youngsters face bias in our criminal justice system.

When children leave custody they need family support more than anything else. But the youth justice system appears to have given up on parenting. Last year, 55,000 young offenders were found guilty in the courts. Just 189 parenting orders were issued to provide challenge and support for the parents of young offenders. Only 60 involved BAME young people. If parenting orders are not working then they need to be replaced by something that does.

Most of all, young people need a different future to aspire to, but our criminal records regime is holding them back. Half of employers would not consider employing someone with a criminal record. But over the past five years 22,000 minority ethnic children have had their names added to the national police computer database. There should be more flexibility. As in parts of the US, there should be an opportunity for ex-offenders to come before a judge, or an organisation like the parole board, to apply to have records sealed in all but the most serious cases.

The disproportionate number of BAME young people in the justice system is a social timebomb. It is beyond time to stop talking about this problem and to act."


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